Thursday, December 01, 2005

From The Carnal 1

I've had a couple of days to mull things over & I'm still undecided. I've talked w/several folks about it, had my run through all different types of emotions over it & still don't know what I'm to do, if anything at all. Maybe if you read this you could help me.


I was getting ready for work the other night, when I was getting out of the shower Amy came in to tell me that 'I'd missed it'. I told her that I didn't know what she was talking about. She then continued to inform me of the 2 visitors we had just had from the local independent fundamental church while I showered.

My initial reaction was 1 that tried to make lite of the situation & deal w/it by essentially understanding their intentions & shrugging my shoulders. I don't necessarily agree w/the approach, but understand it somewhat. The more I think about it though, I tend to get a little pissed & contemplate going to the church to have a sit down w/the pastor.

I've talked to our neighbors over the last couple of days & found that their opinion mirrors mine somewhat. I've read the tracts that they left & don't get anything else but mad. They're very limited in their view of God as I would have to assume that their church is & even though the pastor there has been in ministry about as long as I've been alive, I can't help but feel that I need to say something.

Truth is, this really saddens me. Their walk, talk, material & lives appear to be devoid of the joy that I know from a very, very, personal relationship w/the Master Creator even though they would look @ me & my life & call it carnal xtianity. They're building their own tower of Babel to the heavens that only serves to cast a dark shadow on those that would love a god, a true God if only he weren't so small as what they propose.

This tract laying on my desk now kills me...

What You Miss By Being A Christian...

HELL!

What if I weren't home? I don't feel comfortable w/2 men coming to my door w/my wife home alone w/4 kids...regardless of what church they're from or how nice their suits are. Did I mention that this was @ 8pm too? Shouldn't cultural barriers be considered when attempting to be evangelical?

My main question still remains...did the cats receive divine word to come to Dandy Dr or what is something else? Are these efforts, regardless of how good the intent was, under the authority & leading of the Holy Spirit? When did Jesus do anything outside of what His Father asked/commanded?

Never.

I know the feeling though & can relate. I've had that gnawing @ me that longs for me to do something, anything, rather than to appear disobedient or lazy or non-committed. Problem w/that was that I was motivated out of the fear of a vengeful God & wanted desperately to appear of worth to Him. I needed to go & witness rather than to witness as I am going. The difference may appear minute linguistically, but is vast when it comes to the heart.

This whole thing hasn't been far from my thoughts over the last 2 days. So what say you? Do I go & talk to Pastor Morris & express not only my concerns, but give them feedback on the negative impact they've had on a neighborhood?

Some would say that it's a waste of time, but if they don't ever hear it, how will they ever even begin to understand? I don't long to set anyway straight, but I would hope that some understanding might result, even if it come from a carnal xtain. This bothers me & I only want to do what's right, true & genuine.

What do you think?

11 Comments:

Blogger Bar L. said...

I'd say you should go over and talk to him. If you dismiss the idea, it will probably keep bothering you. Lee, you are an example of Love here in the blog world so I can only imagine what kind of impact you have in person. Your neighbors opened up and shared their concern too. It may be uncomfortable to go talk to Pastor Morris about this but you don't seem like the type to let that stop you!

Chances are he will defend his church's practices, but at least your words will be HEARD.

That's my HO.

10:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Isn't it true that you miss Hell by being a Christian? Isn't it true that Jesus spoke more on Hell than he did on Heaven? Isn't it true that unless you repent you will go to Hell? Isn't it true unless you are born again you will go to Hell?

What is wrong with warning people to flee the wrath to come? We are children of wrath by nature and need to repent to be born into God's family.

I am in no way associated with LivingWaters.com, but they have a message on there that you really should listen to:
Hell's Best Kept Secret.

It will give you pause to think about your approach to soul-winning. We are all guilty and condemned before God the righteous and holy judge. Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Are we not told to save some "with fear, pulling them out of the fire?"

12:41 PM  
Blogger lee said...

if you do a key word search you'll find that in the gospels hell appears 15 times vs. 141 for heaven...

in it's entirety, the bible speaks more about money than heaven or hell combined...

does this mean we should teach more classes on economics than evangelism...?

hmmm...

what does all of this mean...?

yeah, missing hell by being a xtian is a pretty big deal, but why...

hells sux...

that's also a no-brainer...

but why...?

is it do to all the fire & brimstone & demons...?

while those things would really make the stay bad, that still isn't the reason to want to miss hell...

so what is...?

'cause God ain't there...

if we don't want to go where God ain't then logic would say that we should want to go where He is...

semantics...?

no...

it's doing the right thing for the right reasons...

obedience not coercion...

otherwise we've only managed to turn the clocks backwards to emulate the sacrifices of days past that lacked what God desired most from us...

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doing a simple word search on just those 2 words does skew the results as you say - but try also searching on judgment, perish, outer darkness, etc.

Your money comment is irrelevant as that is off the topic. Jesus came to seek and save the lost and to do so, he did indeed talk more about Hell and judgment than he did about Heaven.

Doing things for the right reasons is how we should be - but since we cannot love God until we are born of God (1 John), the love of God or the wanting to be where God is will not and can not motivate a lost person to get saved.

Obedience not coercion is true - God wants obedience. What are we to obey? Obey the gospel - what is the gospel? The death, the burial, and resurrection. So one must ask, why is the death part of the gospel - why did Jesus die? He died to take our punishment that we deserve - he endured the wrath of God for our sins. We deserve the wrath of God - that's part of the gospel we are to obey. If you never come to the place where you realize you deserve the wrath of God, you cannot be saved. Being saved is admitting you are guilty and you plead for mercy.

If you don't believe that Jesus paid the price for you, God will repay you with the same wrath that he showed the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

4:06 PM  
Blogger lee said...

i mention money for a reason that is very on topic...

the bible speaks on it so much because of all the things that God cherishes, He wants our devotion more than anything else...

why is it so hard to understand that to long for someone not to go to a particular place isn't necessarily the same as wanting them to be w/you...?

i love my parents & it is so much more a direct way of thinking for me to say that i long for them to be w/me than for me to tell them that i don't want them to go to hoboken...

'the love of God or the wanting to be where God is will not and can not motivate a lost person to get saved'

all i can say here is wow...

i really hate how you've managed to strip our Father of His omnipotence...

we definitely DO deserve the wrath of God, but being covering w/Christ we are spared it...

@ what point do we, w/this very vital fact as foundation, progress to the point of maturity & freedom to become what he longs for us to be & called us Himself...?

friends

i love you gordy & appreciate the comments...

8:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think we are talking about two different groups of people. It sounds like you are saying fear should not be the motivator for those already saved - to which I agree for the most part. As it says in Hebrews 6, if we are to grow - to mature - to move onto perfection, we are not to lay again the foundation of repentance. That means if we have already repented (seen our works as wicked and deserving of Hell), we do not need to focus on that for our perfection - we need to move past that.

However, fear should be a motivator for the unsaved - in fact it really is the only motivator that will work for them. The unsaved can not be motivated by their love for God for unsaved people do not have a love for God (1 John 4). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

God's love and mercy motivates the saint; the fear of receiving God's wrath motivates the sinner.

9:28 AM  
Blogger lee said...

interesting that you would use 1john4...

it speaks a lot about love...

the 1 who does not love does not know God, for God is love...

there is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the 1 who fears is not perfected in love...

i'm not abdicating that fear plays no role in the coming to know God...

i'm proposing the attractiveness to come to Him by His unsolicited love for us & hopefully His believers love for each other & a very lost world...

it's ok bro...

we can love unconditionally as He has taught us, speak revrently of a very healthy fear/respect of our Master & to allow the Spirit to correct & quicken those that would not measure up to our standards...

after all, what's the most important commandments...?

to fear the Lord w/all your heart, mind & soul?

nope...

to love Him & our neighbors as our selves...

9:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

:-)

'after all, what's the most important commandments...?

to fear the Lord w/all your heart, mind & soul?

nope...

to love Him & our neighbors as our selves...'


I don't think you caught what I said about saints - I am not disagreeing with you when it comes to what motivates saints. Saints are not motivated by fear; saints are motivated by love.

It is impossible for a sinner to keep that commandment because 1 John 4 says if they know not God (are unsaved), they can not love.

10:15 AM  
Blogger lee said...

i understand the distinction that you're attempting to draw...

i'm saying that for us as believers to be effective in reaching, we must have a working & healthy knowlege of both & fear/love & it's role as it's related to believer/unbeliever...

besides, vs8 says that the 1 who does not love does not know God, not the other way around...

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

8The one who does not love does not know God, for (A)God is love

8The person who refuses to love doesn't know the first thing about God, because God is love--so you can't know him if you don't love.

8He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love.

8But anyone who does not love does not know God--for God is love

8Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love

8God is love, and anyone who doesn't love others has never known him

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


8He that loveth not, knoweth not God, for God is love.

so, regardless of translation, it remains the same...

it's more than semantics...

a cart & horse just seem to work better w/the horse in front...

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think this will be my last two cents on this one ;-)

If you are going by someone's house on your early morning run and saw that the house was on fire and you knew there was a family asleep inside, would you:

1. Stand outside smiling and having a good time and hope someone inside wakes up, looks out a window, sees you having a good time, and thinks they would be better off outside with you,

2. Knock on the door and kindly tell the occupants that you love them and God loves them and God thinks they would be much happier standing outside in the yard, or

3. Break the door down, run in yelling to the occupants to wake up, alerting them to the danger of the fire, and telling them to run for their lives?

1:53 PM  
Blogger lee said...

this would be a viable analogy save for a couple of things...

it's not reality, too simplistic & doesn't allow for any spiritual attributes such as discernment or being spirit-led...

in our desperation we are capable of much greater harm than good when we find that our faith is fueled by fear & guided by the attempt to alleviate guilt...

consider the possibility...

we run into a house that to our own fleshy eyes appears to be a blaze & try to jerk the folks out of it, all the while there may not even be a sense of smoke...

we can't discount the work & guidance of the spirit when we try to engage a dying world...

w/out a doubt there may be times when it calls to break out a few windows & yank people out...

but, i would pray that it's because we're on mission for the Father & not for ourselves...

faith is not formulaic nor is the process of reaching another...

we cannot manipulate people into it by fear or love or whatever...

all fish don't bite on the same bait...

& afterall...

aren't we to be fisher's of men...

2:22 PM  

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